Author Topic: So Viper is pretty good  (Read 5248 times)

CSeraph

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So Viper is pretty good
« on: January 08, 2007, 07:03:49 am »
I've never had much respect for the guy, and I have to take it all back. I've never seen him played very well, and his low stats + marginal ultimate never seemed to add up to much for me. Having played him in the DOTA AI matchs I had access to here (before I accidentally destroyed my laptop), though, he is a char whose sum is more than his parts.

His ult IS pretty so-so, and he can't compete with the lategame agi heroes, but his early game is just phenomenal - nobody but lich harasses so hard. Added to that, from lv6 through the midgame there is no hero who should be able to successfully 1v1 Viper. The combined movement and attack speed slows of his passive, orb and ult add up to ~100% base attack speed reduction, and make escape without a stun or blink fairly impossible... he's arguably a better ganker than lina at this point.

Not sure what an appropriate equip build is, I have been making Buriza then Aegis but that seems a bit random. When I get back I will be adding him to my lineup.. give him a try if you haven't before!
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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 08:13:58 am »
If you can orb walk viper is the nuts.  He seems to be able to orb walk faster than any other hero. If you can't orb walk then he is mediocre.

Correct build for IH/League play is: Bracers, then straight to boots of travel, or bracers then Midas, to Boots of travel.  After that its either MKB Buriza, or straight to DRA.  I have also seen a tank build that goes vanguard, But BoT have to be your fist major item for ganking. Other wise he misses out on his window of highest effectiveness.
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geoff

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 11:00:22 am »
a viper strike at level 6 to about 13 and if the targeted hero is far away enough from a tower and doesnt have blink or invis is pretty much a surefire kill with proper orb walking. his ult i have to say is quite amazing.

needless to say i love this guy almost as much as morphling, only silencer can probably rival him 1v1 and well hes just fantastic with the orb and passive.

midas is not that great i find on viper cause his base damage and orb effect makes farming a piece of cake.
i tend to go 2 bracers then buriza. frenzy is always a debated skill since one has to think if its more effective then just adding stats. i usually get it after a level 3 ult. i agree with the early BoT since its pretty good escape tool and he has no other natural means of escape.
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CSeraph

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 12:08:44 pm »
Frenzy is unquestionably better after Lv3 ult. Your killing dominance is likely tapering at that point and one of the main things you still offer besides your slows is pushing down towers fast.

I don't need BoTs for hunting the AI because they won't move their heroes back when you walk around them ^.^. Good call generally though.

I would count his natural slow to ms when under attack as a kind of evasion, as he should be able to outrun most heroes withou stuns.

I'm tempted by the concept of a tank viper as his hps really are shit, but he just needs other things too much more.
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Marketeer

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 10:16:52 pm »
One of the things that makes Viper so deadly is that the heroes who would be ideally placed to counter him are generally Scourge heroes.

Sent has some great heroes, but early game 1v1 lane control is not a Sent strength, certainly not compared to the potential soloists on the Scourge side.
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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 12:52:23 am »
1v1 I would say enchantress could do it.  But enchatress often(always?) solos, where as viper does not, and in the current meta should not.
"I'm not much on speeches, but it's so gratifying to leave you wallowing in the mess you've made, you're screwed. Thank you. Bye."

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CSeraph

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 05:43:41 am »
Enchantress? I doubt it. She's at her best against melee heroes who have to run away from her harass. I suppose it depends somewhat on how the interactions work out - is impetus magic? is damage from orbs all considered magic? Not sure how Viper's resistance responds, or whether his dot from the orb is affected by resistance. Either way though, Viper's orb is massively more spammable than impetus/healing.
Only what is entirely lost demands to be endlessly named: there is a mania to call the lost thing until it returns.
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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 08:25:10 am »
True, but after level 6 I think enchantress wins out in longevity.  The reason Enchant is seeing play in competitive games, is not her ability to dominate melee heros.  Interesting to note that NA is now seeing play as a counter to Enchant, she is pretty bad with out mana :).
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v3ck

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 09:13:48 am »
Impetus is not magic. It deals exact damage, as do glaives and arcane orb.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 08:54:05 am by v3ck »

CSeraph

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 11:03:13 am »
Ehh... I don't know Iain. By 6, the lane fight should be over - Viper should simply kill her outright if she does more than tower-hug, providing she hasn't gone heavy nature's attendants. If she has things are more difficult, but she should still be fodder with the help of someone with a 2 sec stun.

But what do I know, I'm not following the competitive game so enchant seeing play itself if OMGWTFBBQ to me.
Only what is entirely lost demands to be endlessly named: there is a mania to call the lost thing until it returns.
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geoff

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 12:27:43 pm »
the best sent hero to solo against viper is hands down silencer

or possibly THD
If Ben Rubin does it, it's right - I don't care if he's Bolting himself in response to you laying a Forest - it's the play, it's legal, and it's f***ing brilliant

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v3ck

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 08:48:26 am »
I disagree with THD. I don't think any nuker is an appropriate solo counter to Viper. As for Silencer, he was mainly used to counter combo-nukers. And, because Lich is the only Scourge hero that ever soloed for many many versions, Silencer was always chosen to lane against him, as he is the best last-hitter that can escape a combo nuke (Nova-Chain). I think he is more vulnerable to Viper's heavy harass. Lone Druid seems to be the solo hero of choice these days. When Viper moves up to the creeps to harass LD, the bear can hit him a couple of times, perhaps resulting in a deadly entangle. During an orb-walk chase, the bear can hammer away at him, which has a very good chance of resulting in a saving entangle, followed by the bear returing safely to the escaped LD's side. When the lane pushes to a position that favours a Viper chase, LD simply cuts into the forest and farms neutrals, as his bear easily soaks up the damage.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 08:51:19 am by v3ck »

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Re: So Viper is pretty good
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 09:12:08 am »
I think discussing Solo viper is a bit of a moot point.  I have not seen a solo viper in a competitive game in over a month.

Viper is now being paired with lich or Sand King for the most part, or atleast some one with a a slowing or stunning nuke.

Its crazy that those arrow effects are triggered... I know Searing arrow is physical, What about Visage and Viper are they magic damage?
"I'm not much on speeches, but it's so gratifying to leave you wallowing in the mess you've made, you're screwed. Thank you. Bye."

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